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Winch dismantling problem

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Topic author Netherlands
Phrancus
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Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » June 17th, 2022, 6:27 am

So I finally got to the winch. It turns both ways so the motor and the gearbox are ok. What is not ok is that I could not lock the clutch, so the chain cannot be pulled by any force. I can turn the handle but as soon as it should clamp, it turns through that resistance and this goes on as much as you like.

The unit has been sitting there for years without any maintenance so I expected the removal of the top nut with the winch handle as my biggest challenge.

Had it soak in WD40 for a day or two and with a lot of force, it did come off to my surprise.

Then took each item from the top and ended up with this:

1655460608839.jpg


back to the drawing:

1655460608816.jpg


number 277 looks like it should simply slide up the shaft and out of the way. Then some clips and the shaft plus motor should drop into the chain locker. Or so I thought.

I'm now stuck with a stuck clutch cone. And the strange thing is is that it does turn freely, it just does not move up or down.

1655460608833.jpg


1655460608825.jpg



My questions:

- should it come off upward now or am I missing something?
I tried rather excessive force (crowbar style) but it keeps turning nicely while not moving up at all.

- how is this supposed to work? Is part 276 pushed against this clutch by turning the top nut with the handle?
Would it work to do something with that so it will connect 276 and 277 forever? Like adding some shims under the top nut?
I only (want to) use it to pull up the anchor chain, no need for that clutch. I don't use it as a rope-winch so I can do without that.
As the motor runs I can do this and leave it as is: no taking apart for cleaning and such.

I can't take the whole thing out without removing that clutch. So if there is no trick: I either have to put it back together and fixate the clutch to the gypsy (is that 276?) and let it function like that.

Or I have to cut the clutch to pieces and replace the whole thing. Which would financially not be worth it when looking at how it will be used and because the motor still works. If it takes a chain up, it is enough. No need to pull the boat along or use the rope part and so on.
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Viper » June 17th, 2022, 7:16 am

276 is the gypsy. According to the diagram, it would seem that the clutch should slide up. I suspect that the C clip (279) is mounted in a groove in the gypsy and perhaps serves to keep the seal (278) in place. The clip won't come off unless you compress it first. I wonder if the C clip is rusted on to the bearing (281) below it. This would allow the clutch to spin but not lift as I suspect 280 are clips mounted into the grooves on the shaft, this would keep the bearing in place. I'm guessing here, it would help if there was a part number listing attached to ensure we're identifying the parts properly. One would think though that with enough force you'd break that rust.

Have you tried heating the clutch in an effort to expand it to see if that helps with removal? The only issue with that is that you'll likely ruin the seal but I suspect it's a generic one that can be easily replaced.

Have you taken a close look at the possibility of dismantling/removing the shaft from the gearbox below so that you can lift it from above?

What is the make and model? I'm sure you can find a manual on line. I'll take a look, the base seems familiar to me like an older Quick or Lofrans or even a Simpson Lawrence
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Topic author Netherlands
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » June 17th, 2022, 10:40 am

It is indeed a Lofrans and I have the 'manual' but that doesn't help much. It simply sais 'extract 277'

I think you're right about that something got together under the clutch and keeps a spring in place.

But before going all gung-ho and hyperfocusing on getting it all apart, I had another look at the material at hand. A solution to the use of the winch would be to get the gypsy and the clutch bonded together. The normal way would be to tighten the top 275 nut, thus pushing the gypsy down onto the clutch with force. Counterforce for the nut would be the 279 or 280 springs.

Somehow that did not work any more but apparently the springs are in place because they keep the clutch from moving up. Therefore if I increase the pressure by decreasing the length of the shaft, the nut tightening function may be working again.

Now I took the gypsy home for a good clean and found that 203 is not a ring around the nut but it is a washer under the nut.

If I can add another washer, then the nut does not have to pull the shaft up so far any more. It may be now that it bottoms out on the top of the shaft, thus can turn what you want but no more force can be put on it. In fact, it will damage the thread, may already have.

Edit: 203 is not a washer, so perhaps someone before me tried this trick and added it. Don't see it on the diagram.

Of course it's no a washer that I have in a box of stuff but I'm sure I can find it in some hardware store next week. Perhaps I can do a quick test by putting a thick copper wire inbetween and see if I can bridge the gap and get it tight enough to work.

I don't think I can get that bronze (?) clutch to weld on to the alumium gypsy so tightening it up is my best bet for now. Funny that I want to bond something that was elaborately designed no to...
Last edited by Phrancus on June 17th, 2022, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Topic author Netherlands
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » June 17th, 2022, 10:50 am

Dropping the gearbox / motor I think it should be possible but it didn't move vertically at all ( I removed nuts 227) and I have a hard time reaching with anything to put some force on it in the small space. It does rotate though, so perhaps the same problem with some spring or clip.

It is a Lofrans Airon. For future readers: here is a link to the manuals of Lofrans products, also the retired ones.

And here are the exploded view complete and the parts list:
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-17 om 16.47.40.png


Schermafbeelding 2022-06-17 om 16.47.23.png


Here is the zip file:
Lofrans Airon Mounting - Operation And Maintenance Instructions ~ Airon [RETIRED PRODUCT].pdf.zip
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Topic author Netherlands
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » June 18th, 2022, 7:38 am

Temps suddenly went up today but I wanted to get the thing going so set out with the now cleaned parts (rust removal with oxalic acid, great method).

To achieve a (more) permanent clutch bond, I added height to the ring under the top nut. The ring was not originally there and I noticed a damaged thread on the main shaft. The nut was not able to hold due to that. I added some massive copper wire in rings under that stainless ring and then put the nut on top. New part of the thread used and it had grip.
Also removed the plastic flat ring between clutch and gypsy to increase friction.

Too bad I had the 4 nuts off underneath (that was because I thought it would drop the motor off the shaft but that was not the case) so I had a nice crappy job to do to get them back on. Didn't do it the right way but it got back in place and strong enough for my use.

Put the chain back through the hole. of course underestimated that before so took the finger and cover off again. Anyway, chain through, fixed to the anchor. Release the anchor locking thing and...... pushed the button on the remote....:

nice and smooth though noisy the anchor went down and the chain followed very nicely! :down:

small applause from some boats further up in the marina, they were there when I was bashing and hacking it apart yesterday. :clap:

And then up.... this was the problem (had to take it up manually, drop it in a bucket and afterwards feed it back into the locker) that started it all.... and yes! it had enough strength to pull it back in. :worthy:

Took one shove on the anchor chain pile in the locker to spread it a bit, that's OK: on our normal trips I never use this much anchor chain out anyway.

Sometimes such a job is a good opportunity to fix mistakes made earlier. So now the anchor goes up when you push 'up' instead of the other way round as before. I changed the relay for a Chinaman relay (for 4x4 winches) with remote when I renovated the locker (it leaked into the boat instead of to the outside drain hole) and replaced the shot handgrenade type relays).

Unfortunately I also created a future problem by not putting back the 4 washers and one of the 4 nuts. Just couldn't reach them with enough fingers to get them on working upside down. But then again; if ever it needs to be taken apart, then the whole nose will be removed to get it all fixed up. Highly unlikely, it's not a Riva beauty or something classic and rare.

So it is what it is now and still I am satisfied with the results. This is as far as I can get it up to speed without having to spend over 750 EUR for a new(er) one plus taking the nose apart (which will reveal problems with the core that would need to be addressed too).

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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Viper » June 18th, 2022, 7:54 am

203 looks like a seal. Is the top half of the clutch (286) present?
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » June 18th, 2022, 10:07 am

286 is only on the non-drum version, I have the one with the 274 drum. yet, the drum does not have a bottom that looks like the 286. Perhaps it is just to center the 285.

The 276 that 'catches' the chain is a one piece bronze thing, apparently available in various sizes to fit the various chain types.

There is no 203 on my drum, the Stainless steel nut has its own O-ring.

The drawing states '2007' and my boat is from 1992 so there may be some differences. Very much alike and same principle but likely to have some design changes over time. Looking at the nut, they may have added a seal so to reduce the contact surface between the aluminium and the steel in that spot where (salt) water seeps in and causes havoc.
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Topic author Netherlands
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Re: Winch dismantling problem

Postby Phrancus » July 3rd, 2022, 10:47 am

Finally had a trip out and yes! it worked! I only had to loosen the anchor a bit when entering the anchoring area, and nicely from the bridge maneuver the boat to where I wanted it, pushed the button on the remote and ClangClang! down it went.

Secured it later on with a rope to take the tension off the winch plus have a visual check on any changes to the chain length overboard.

And when leaving, what an easy take off. Short push over the anchor, press the button and up it came, clean and all.

Another one off the list. Thanks for all the comments, tips and support.

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