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Stalling after x length of run time

GAS engine, transmission and generator repair and maintenance discussion forum.
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Topic author Liechtenstein
chpsk8
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Stalling after x length of run time

Postby chpsk8 » July 25th, 2021, 5:34 pm

I had an odd thing happen yesterday and I could use some help troubleshooting it.

We took a 5 hour run north on the Mississippi last Monday. Speed was a constant 8mph roughly 1800 rpm. Ran the generator the entire trip. Arrived at the marina after about 5 hours with no issues or drama.

Yesterday we did the same run back down to our home marina after spending the week as transients. We topped off the port gas tank with 7 gallons of gas to balance the tanks since the generator runs off the port tank.

We pretty much idled through a no wake for the first 20 minutes, then popped up to 2100 rpm and took off down the river. Got about ten minutes into the run and the port motor died. Did some checks on it and things looked ok, not hot, oil pressure good, voltage good.
Fired it back up, sounded perfect. Throttled up to 1900 rpm and made it another half hour and it did the same thing.
The generator never shut off during all of this. Someone then suggested shutting that down in case it was drawing a lot of fuel from that tank.
Long story short, we would run about 45 minutes and then lose the port motor. Did that the entire ride back. I could start it almost instantly after it died. No cooling off required. I also took an ir gun into the engine compartment to see if anything was hot. Temps on the two fuel pumps were 97 and 101. Not hot. Risers were 114.

1995 355 Aft
Twin 454 xli Crusaders. Throttle body injected.

My first thought was vapor lock. The motor would die similar to when you pull the fuel line on a lawn mower to winterize it. It would slowly ramp down, not shut off instantly.
I ran the rest of the trip with the port gas cap off, which didn’t help.

I’m thinking maybe anti-siphon valve? Does that sound right?
Fwiw both of my motors have had their main fuel pumps replaced in the last two years. I have not replaced the little helper pump on either motor.
Fuel filters and water separators were also replaced this spring.

If it is the anti siphon valve, where is that on top of the tank? Is it easy to get to? Is it going to be stuck on there and a pita to remove? I can’t get down there until next Sunday so I want to be prepared for what i need to do for this project.
Is there anything else I can look for that would cause similar symptoms? I do plan to look at the fuel lines to see if any are soft and need replacing.

I have yet to use my aux tank. The PO claimed it was fine. I could fill that and run off that tank to see if it solves the problem. A little nervous to use it since I haven’t yet. Don’t want to find 25 gallons of gas in my swim platform!

Thanks for any help an advice

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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby waybomb » July 25th, 2021, 6:59 pm

Could be anti siphon.valve Yes, at the outlet of the tank. Looks like a hose barb, but is a valve.
Also check your tank vent. Bugs love to nest in them.
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Fred
1969 Glaspar Avalon /1969 Johnson Electromatic 85
1987 Carver Mariner
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby g36 » July 25th, 2021, 8:30 pm

I have the same engines. I know you mentioned fuel filters replaced but if the oberg round screen is dirty it will do what your saying. This screen is cleaned and doesn't need to replaced. It's the round disk first inline on the fuel line by the engine low and onthe starboard side. Believe me it doesn't take much crap in this to cause problems. Here what it looks like but will be black not red....https://www.jegs.com/i/Oberg-Filters/706/4028U/10002/-1
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Topic author Liechtenstein
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby chpsk8 » July 25th, 2021, 8:51 pm

I don’t have the ufo disc style filters in mine. I have big in-line canister type filters. Not sure if they are original. I spent hours a couple years ago looking for that disc filter only to have my mechanic confirm they didn’t exist on my boat. I have hard pipe from the primary pump to the filter though, so maybe it’s factory. Thanks for the alternative suggestion though. I do appreciate the advice on what rock to look under, and it’s always amazing how different boats are set up.
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby Midnightsun » July 26th, 2021, 6:13 am

This is a long shot but an experience I had many years ago. The intake from the tank on a previous boat had a screen mesh in the tank. Same issue, once shut down and allowed to sit a while it fired right up. Crud would release and float away from the screen when engine was off and not sucking gas. Once fired up and a suction created, the crud eventually plugged her up again. This was on a 17' Sea-ray, dads boat about 35 years ago, don't even know if they still have screens on the intake today.
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby Viper » July 26th, 2021, 7:24 am

The anti-siphon valve is suspect as well as the pick up as mentioned if it has a screen, both are common faults. The anti-siphon valve will be the fitting your fuel hose hooks up to at the tank. I don't think it's vapour lock as that usually takes a while before you can restart the engine. If in doubt, try running with the engine hatches off, this provides additional cooling in the compartment. It shouldn't be the vent as you were running with the cap off and the generator continued running.

What's important to know here is how the engine shuts down. Does it suddenly stop like you turned off the key, or does slowly start to lose rpm, cough, spit, then quit? A sudden stop is usually related to an electrical or ignition issue, while a slow erratic shut down is more like to be a fuel delivery issue.

If symptoms lead to fuel delivery, try switching that engine to draw off the starboard tank with your selector valves? You can try that on its own and or try switching the starb engine to the port tank to see if the fault follows the tank. With some work and caution, you can also plumb in a portable tank away from the engine compartment and see if the fault still occurs. If it doesn't, the fault is the fuel system anywhere from the engine to and including the tank. If it still happens, its the engine side. Hook up the tank directly to the engine and make sure all areas are vented.
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Topic author Liechtenstein
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby chpsk8 » July 26th, 2021, 7:48 am

When it died it would slowly ramp down over a period of maybe 3-4 seconds. I could watch the rpms drop off, and sometimes it would just go to idle, sit for a couple seconds, then completely die. Hard to hear any sputtering.
It was very easy to restart almost every time. Even the couple times it was tough, it only took a few seconds to recover which leads me to believe nothing is cooling off in order to restart. I did run the blowers the whole trip to keep it cooler in the engine compartment.
Thanks for the tips.
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby g36 » July 26th, 2021, 8:42 am

Any chance your sucking air on a fuel filter or fitting that might be loose?
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The Black Pearl
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Topic author Liechtenstein
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby chpsk8 » July 26th, 2021, 11:49 am

I'll check the connections on the fuel lines and the water separator. It never smells like fuel in the engine room, no drips or fumes, but worth the check. I'm also going to feel for some soft fuel lines. There are rubber lines from the tank to the fuel selectors, and then from the selectors to the fuel pump, then they convert to hard lines to the TBI.

My boat has the aft reserve tank which I haven't used. I have fuel selectors that allow me to pull from either the port tank, or the aft tank on that motor (port side) Unfortunately I can't pull from the starboard side.

Anyone know if Carver put any access panels to make it easier to get at the fitting? That's one space I haven't had the pleasure of playing in yet. I briefly stuck my head in there yesterday and couldn't really see where any lines connected. Can't find any pictures of it using the googler either. :)
I may make a DIY document out of it for people to reference. We'll see how ambitious I get!
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Topic author Liechtenstein
chpsk8
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Re: Stalling after x length of run time

Postby chpsk8 » August 1st, 2021, 6:59 pm

Just following up with what I found this morning. I pulled all the hatches, got all my tools organized for a long day of troubleshooting…

A couple nights ago I was talking to the previous owner and described what I was experiencing. He said the same thing happened to him about five years ago. He replaced the antisiphon valve, and in his troubleshooting he also replaced all the fuel lines. I was a little crushed knowing all of that was already done. Anyways… back to today…

I looked at the antisiphon valve and sure enough, it looked new. I traced the fuel lines, and they were all new and well fitted. I then did what g36 and a couple others suggested and looked at the filter and water separator.
I got to the water separator and put my hand on it and it moved! I hand tightened it with two hands and was able to turn it almost half a turn.

I didn’t have time to run it today, but that filter being loose like that pretty much points to the problem. We are going out next weekend for a long run, and I’m pretty confident it’s solved.

I was happy to find a small access panel that looked down on the muffler, and then I could reach the valve on the tank. Would have been better if that hole was over the valves and sender. I’d hate to have to pull that sender the way it’s buried in there.

Thanks for all the advice. Certainly helped me get to a solution. :captain:

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