28 Voyager steering issues using shifters

[Voyager Bill]

Hello to all!

I'm the new owner of a 1987 Carver Voyager, purchased last fall. She is my second Carver. My last one was a 1990 3607 ACMY that I owned for 7 years. I sold her when we downsized for retirement. I loved that boat!

One of the things I loved about the 3607 was how she handled around the docks(when the wind wasn't blowing!). As most of you Twin screw owners know, often you can make the boat spin on a dime just by leaving the rudders centered, the engines at idle speed and using the shifters to turn to port or starboard. Whenever I was in a harbor, I never used the steering wheel, I just used the shifters and the boat would work just like a zero turn radius lawn mower, even though she had an eight inch keel that ran most of the length of the boat.

So, when I started looking at the 28 Voyagers, I assumed that they would be at least comparable in handling to the 36 footer, especially since they are only around 24 feet long at the waterline. Looking online, I saw a video of a 28 Riviera spinning left and right in a tight fairway. I figured that it had the same hull as the voyager.

When I sea-trialed the Voyager, I let the owner pull away from the dock at the start, and let him handle it to and from the gas dock. I noticed immediately that he never used the shifters to steer. When we got out of the marina, I took over and she handled fine at low and high speed using the rudders, but I didn't check at idle speed, using the shifters. When we got back to the marina entrance, I let him take over(it had been 3 years since I docked a boat and I was nervous). He steered all the way in to the slip using the rudders. I thought about asking why, but decided not to.

So after we completed the deal, and I took possession, I was allowed to keep her at the slip for the remainder of the season. Due to weather, it was a few days before we left the dock for the first time. i spun the wheel and counted turns lock to lock and spun back half way to hopefully put the rudders in a straight ahead position. I put the port shifter in reverse to move her stern away from the dock as we backed up(dock was on the port side), but we went almost straight back. Once almost clear of the dock I put the port to neutral and the Stbd shifter back. This time the stern started to turn as hoped, but fairly slowly, so I put the port shifter forward to speed the turn, but there was almost no discernable change in the rate that we were rotating. For the remaining time that we cruised, leaving and returning to the slip, there was very little response to the port shifter, and only a little more on the Stbd. Handling her around the docks was a little bit of white knuckle! Nothing at all like my previous boat.

I set about trying to figure out what the issue was. I only had a few weeks before the season ended. I verified that the rudders were pointing where I needed them to. Right from the start, I figured that the engine RPM's were low at idle. I found that the port engine did idle a little lower than the Stbd. engine. My tachs(all four) were pretty unreliable, as 33 year old tachs tend to be and none matched up. I bought a digital tach and found that the port engine idled around 580 rpms and the Stbd. at around 650 in neutral, with the port dropping about 100 rpm in gear and the Stbd. dropping about 50.

Checking the V-drive manual, I found that you shouldn't shift at greater than 1000 RPM so I adjusted the idle RPM up to roughly 750 for each engine. There was very little improvement. At cruising speeds with the engines synced the boat tracks straight, but at dock speeds, there is nowhere near the control that I had with the 3607. Now that the season is ended and she is on the hard, we checked the rudders and props and they look fine.

Don't get me wrong. At the price that I got it for, I would have still gladly bought the Voyager! She's a fine boat and fits my needs perfectly.

The questions that I have are:

1. Are there any Voyager/Mariner owners out there, and what is your experience with steering at idle speed?

2. Any one have any thoughts on the RPM drop at load? Is it normal? Could it be carburetor issues?

3 Any other ideas/suggestions?

I was told when I bought my first boat that you never should use the rudders at idle speed and that it actually could be risky because of control issues. Now, I'm finding that I'm having control issues using the shifters. Does anyone have any ideas to share?

I'd appreciate your input...

Thanks,

Bill
1987 Carver 28 Voyager
To be renamed: Laurentide
Currently stored in Portage, IN
To be slipped this year in Whitehall, MI

[km1125]

With V-drives you now have all the weight of the engines farther toward the stern, so your pivot point is going to be much farther aft than what you were used to with the 3607.

Getting the idles correct is a big part. If that port engine is dropping twice what the starboard is when in gear vs in neutral, then you probably have some tune-up issues to address. Perhaps it's a mixture issue or an ignition timing issue. I'd find the actual idle specs (and if that's in-gear or in neutral) and get them adjusted and idling fine. You're right that you don't want to get up at 1000 RPM and be banging those into and out of gear.

Also make sure that your transmissions aren't slipping. Do both engines engage in both fwd and rev "smartly"? You could have a pressure issue in one or both trans that means there's some slip. This is exacerbated at very low RPMs. Raising the RPMs will bandaid the issue, but you should notice both transmissions positively engaging at the correct idle speed. Might just need to clean the screen or change the fluid to help this issue.

[throwback2]

I have the same boat and it does handle differently.I believe it is due to the props being closer together and a very heavy stern.I can't really walk this boat sideways like other twin screw boats I have had.What gear ratio does your boat have? Mine is 2.10 to 1 with 18"X18" 4 blade props.

[bud37]

Welcome to the forum.....quite the interesting story......one question for me, does your boat model still have the small keel.

The reason I ask.... I had the same boat but a few years older than yours and to this day it was the best boat I have ever had around the docks.....I could put it anywhere, back , side or forward....the only caveat was when the bridge enclosure was up on a very windy day... An other boat we had , had a keel and was close to the same as far as slow speed control was concerned.

[Viper]

Welcome to the forum Bill.

Sounds like there may be a couple of things at play here. The hull/boat design plays a huge role and is something you can't do much about about. Other conditions may exist as well such as current, wind, etc. in your new location that differs from your previous one.

It would help to know what engine, tranny, v-drive package you have but your idle seems off to me so I would start there. Before you make adjustments however, I recommend a proper tune-up if you don't know the last time one was done or what it consisted of. Replace all the regular maintenance ignition components and fuel filters. I would also check the condition of the carbs and consider sending them out to get rebuilt. That way you know they're not contributing to any issues, and they should operate trouble free for a long time. If you're not familiar with setting them up properly, I recommend you get a technician to do it so you avoid possible engine damage. Only then would I set up the proper idle per the engine spec. Personally I prefer to set them up per the in gear spec as this will help indicate if another issue exists. How she runs in gear is totally different than neutral.

Tuning the engine properly may not solve your maneuvering challenge completely but it'll be better than doing that with a poor running engine. One also needs to adjust rpm to counteract conditions when maneuvering, that includes current, wind, and the type of boat/hull. As long you shift without exceeding max shift rpm, you're okay. If conditions require higher rpm than that to maneuver, then you must reduce rpm just before shifting, then increase it again to overcome conditions until you need to shift again.

Also make sure your trim tabs are operating properly and completely retracted when you're trying to maneuver or they will drag and contribute to the problem.

Have you determined if she is reaching WOT (recommended wide open throttle)? This is a must. It will tell you a lot. You also need to confirm that you have the correct size props for your application. Carver can help with that. Call or email them with your hull number and they will let you know what size they should be.

[g36]

Hello and welcome aboard

[Voyager Bill]

Thank you all for such well thought out answers! I am blown away by the response. In answer to your questions:

km1125 - In the little time that I got to use the boat, it seemed to shift into gear smoothly, with not much if any lag time.

Throwback2 - my transmission is 1:1 ratio. I have the same props as you.

Bud37 - It has a fairly sizeable keel. It starts out at about 8 inches at the stern end and tapers slowly to about an inch at the bow end. Maybe a 15 foot length. She tracks very nicely at cruising speed.

Sooooo...Your suggestions are all excellent. The plan for this offseason is to get the two Crusader 305 220hp engines in tip top shape. My son is a Toyota master tech and boater who was a teenage gear head and has plenty of experience with carbs and tuning of older engines. We will rebuild the carbs, do a complete tuneup, fuel system and transmission service and get her running like new. Also, Viper, the trim tabs suggestion is a good one as the tabs weren't operating. Fixing those is also in the plan.

Thanks for the reminders that the engines and 75 gallon fuel tanks are in the stern area. I actually didn't take that into account. When I think of the 3607, with her two big-block Mercruisers and 240 gallon of fuel placed exactly midships, its no wonder that she spun on her belly like a pregnant guppy!

So, I'm going to lower my expectations a little and tweak her as much as I can. If I can just get the port side steering to match up with the Starboard side, and maybe squeeze a little more performance out of both, I think that I will be satisfied.

Thanks again for all the help!

Bill

[throwback2]

Source of the post Thank you all for such well thought out answers! I am blown away by the response. In answer to your questions:

km1125 - In the little time that I got to use the boat, it seemed to shift into gear smoothly, with not much if any lag time.

Throwback2 - my transmission is 1:1 ratio. I have the same props as you.

Bud37 - It has a fairly sizeable keel. It starts out at about 8 inches at the stern end and tapers slowly to about an inch at the bow end. Maybe a 15 foot length. She tracks very nicely at cruising speed.

Sooooo...Your suggestions are all excellent. The plan for this offseason is to get the two Crusader 305 220hp engines in tip top shape. My son is a Toyota master tech and boater who was a teenage gear head and has plenty of experience with carbs and tuning of older engines. We will rebuild the carbs, do a complete tuneup, fuel system and transmission service and get her running like new. Also, Viper, the trim tabs suggestion is a good one as the tabs weren't operating. Fixing those is also in the plan.

Thanks for the reminders that the engines and 75 gallon fuel tanks are in the stern area. I actually didn't take that into account. When I think of the 3607, with her two big-block Mercruisers and 240 gallon of fuel placed exactly midships, its no wonder that she spun on her belly like a pregnant guppy!

So, I'm going to lower my expectations a little and tweak her as much as I can. If I can just get the port side steering to match up with the Starboard side, and maybe squeeze a little more performance out of both, I think that I will be satisfied.

Thanks again for all the help!

Bill

Not to sound like a smart a$$,but there's no way you have a 1to1 gears with 18" props.Your plan of attack on your boat is good.You will know much more about it and should help you out.

[Voyager Bill]

throwback 2 - For the transmission ratio I referred to the last survey done of the boat in 2017. The surveyor, under the subheading GEAR RATIO said this: "Transmission tag states 1:1 ratio." Next time I'm on the boat, I'll try to verify. I'd be interested to know.

Also, I may have assumed that the props were the spec'd original, 4 blade, 18" factory props. They are 4 blade, and to my eye looked to be about 18 inches in diameter, but I haven't put a tape measure to them yet. I will do that also.

As I go along, I'm trying to put together a comprehensive owner's manual with detailed, accurate information for every system on the boat. Every model no., serial no., nameplate detail, up-to date wiring diagrams, etc. Also, service records and dates for everything that I add or repair on her. I want to be able to have all that information at my fingertips and also be able to hand over a reference manual to the next owner when that time comes.

Yes, boating is a learning experience...what I don't know would fill volumes!

[RGrew176]

Welcome Aboard. Lots of great people here more than willing to share their knowledge as you have already seen.